WELCOME TO THE CLALLAM COUNTY ONLINE ISSUE FORUM BLOG! The purpose of this is to share notes from our online forums, and allow us a place to put other thoughts that arise, as well as allow other people to join into the conversation. Here are the notes from the first meeting to kick it off:
NOTES from the first Clallam County Job Coach/Job Developer Online Forum:
October 27, 2009, 3-5 p.m.
Attending: Robin Schostak, Shannon Ross, Elsie Hampton, Dawn Barrett, Bill Barrett, Donna Morfeld, Aimee Barton, Tanya Berkebile, Monica McDaniel, and Jim Corey
Issue 1: My biggest challenge is the depressed economy and high unemployment rate. There are not many employment opportunities. It is getting to the point that when I go into business people run. It is a struggle. I need any ideas.
• On the other hand I do get to have more conversations with businesses
• Businesses say it is not cost effective and they can’t break job descriptions down
• I am approaching the same businesses several times, they know who I am
• Maybe approach them with cost-effective/money saving ideas after getting to know them
• Ask them what is being cut, and what work still needs to be done despite their cuts
• Potential wording: “HI I’M A CAREER COUNSELOR AND I JUST WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR BUSINESS NEEDS ARE, ESPECIALLY IN THIS BAD ECONOMY. MY JOB IS TO PARTNER WITH YOUR BUSINESS TO UNDERSTAND YOUR NEEDS.”
• Get to know businesses on initial visits, and then introduce disability
• Use term career counselor, not job developer, job coach, supported employment, etc.?
• Build relationships to understand what their needs and cuts are first
• Insurance issue: employers are bringing that up too. Liability insurance for assessments – covered as regular public would be in public areas? Sometimes the people we serve are covered by employment agency insurance plans and sometimes not. RESEARCH. Labor and Industries for employees – based on safety record not on employees with or without disabilities. Dupont study (from Monica) – average individual with disability 90% safer, will send study to group. Might be good to provide businesses with statistics like these. Possibility for people we serve to sign a liability waiver? Partner with DVR on it? Must find a way for employers to gain something from an assessment first, then work with the objections. Start an assessment with workplace safety training. Tell employers about how people with disabilities have become safety officers and committee members. For example: http://peopleworking.wikispaces.com/Doug+at+Safeway. Offer 1×1 commitment. LIABILITY INSURANCE ISSUES MUST BE RESEARCHED MORE…
• Monica offered to provide a document which shows how to word questions with employers to get specific types of information – will send.
Issue 2: 23 yo male, blind, needs to make some progress on his pathway but the family is VERY resistant. We can see he has potential and need ideas to expand his options. He’s been in our Pathways service for 6 months and the family doesn’t reinforce what we’re supporting him to do (like using a cane to navigate). At home he tore up his wallet, and they use that as proof he can’t work. But, he will show us that he IS learning. The strength in hands is very bad. In the car, he didn’t acknowledge the seatbelt at first, but now understands the concept, reaches up/moves his hands and says “seatbelt” but isn’t able to pull it forward. He experiences autism and can be violent if upset. We know what triggers outbursts. When he does tasks, and he is done, he is DONE. He loves music. Another man who is similar – we are re-introducing previously learned concepts that have been unlearned. The care provider stopped the learning.
• Ask him if he wants to learn how to cane and open a door to allow him to express what his wishes are
• Help him think of that cane as an extension of his arm. If he uses it, he can make things happen, feel around, etc.
• Family won’t buy into it – reinforce that this is a tool for him to use for getting around, safety. How to get the family to see value in it? Get them to see he needs to be allowed to grow. You are stifling him if you don’t allow him to grow.
• Support him in public, get him to know, “You are safe with me”
• Show family examples of other people with significant disabilities doing cool things. Talk to families who have experienced the same fears and also success – get them to speak with his family. Connect with them through people who have been through what they are going through. “This is the way it’s been done successfully.” It is hard for them to see new things. There are unspoken fears – try to find out and address what those are.
• There is a DSB assessment in their home soon. DSB assessments show how a person can become independent in their own homes. Reinforce this. This might unlock the possibility of independence outside of the home. Also, getting an appropriate cane for him (size, style, etc.) is important for it to work. DSB is expert in this, not us.
• With family, start with goals they can agree on, e.g. what do you want for the person, more relationships, fuller life, etc. After those are established, new things can be introduced in support of the goals.
• When he is interested in something, he stops to think, e.g. he touched the water and marine life on an outing, loves to feel the wind out the sunroof of the car. Touching things made him a whole different person. He likes touching things – explore that as part of his pathway. Measure what holds his attention and for how long. Maybe try touching other things, exploring different things to touch. Combine with use of cane?
• Use the cane to push things, maybe the musical ball, to teach that use of cane as a tool to cause things to happen. Associate it with pleasurable things to him.
• Go to the Visitors Center – it is a tactile environment. Once he begins to enjoy it, introduce activities he likes, then introduce the cane.
• DSB provide him a cane trainer? Teach tap and slide… proper caning skills… Ask DSB about potential resources. Do research on internet re: caning techniques.
Issue 3: When setting up and coaching during assessments, how do you approach the idea of accommodations? For example, there is a man with hearing loss who wants to be mechanic, and we did some assessments for DVR who wanted to see what he could do on his own. How do you approach businesses about accommodating assessments? What types of accommodations should I look at? His mother didn’t really want it to work out. He is also very interested in the art world, painting, and details. Where to start and who pays for it if it costs money?
• When you get a business to agree to be an assessment site, do a pre-assessment interview. Ask them to do a mini-job interview with you, talk about days and times and duties they would like done. If part of the tasks might be difficult for the person, bring it up right then and there and ask, “Are you open to us allowing to change the height of the table, etc.?” A lot of times, if they are open, they start coming up with other ideas.
• Expensive needs? Who takes care of the cost? If using DVR, for a job, not an assessment, they might get some funding to remove barriers, bring in thoughts, buy assistive devices, etc.. Do research, Google for ideas, talk with others, ask DVR, once a device is identified, DVR can do an IT evaluation which then might provide funding.
• Can the person do the essential functions of the job? What small things can we do to make it possible for the person to be able to do it?
• In general, most accommodations are not expensive, and are simple fixes. People often have “garage engineers” they know who are great at designing and making jigs. Our job is to come up with ideas, get creative, and figure it out… how can they do the task?
• Find out how and what works best for that person. What is he able to do/what senses does he use the most, how does he learn the best? What in that environment does he really want to do? Be creative about finding what he wants to and can do. Then think of what he needs to do it and be successful.
• Sounds like he is mechanically inclined. Might like to take things apart, put things together, like small engine repair, repair shops, appliance repair, bicycles, hardware store, furniture stores, appliances, Home Depot displays, swings, ACE, co-ops.
• Look at broad picture, where he gets enticed, to find out where he might be able to explore his mechanical inclination.
Next Steps:
1. Jim send notes, certificates, evaluations, Dupont Study and Questions for Employers
2. GENERAL REQUEST: CREATE A “BLACKBOARD” TO POST IDEAS, SHARE AND ADD NEW IDEAS, AND KEEP THE CONVERSATION GOING – Jim and Aimee will work on.
3. Schedule November forum.
Agenda
1. Introductions – 2 min
2. Ground rules – say names; raise hands; cells on vibrate; notes are being
taken, so you don’t have to (sorry so choppy, no way to avoid) – 2 min
3. Go over feedback – 5 min
• Ways to enlist the community to support the ideas of supported employment without
seeming
• pushy or taking jobs away from people without the disabilities.
• Trainings helpful to community access providers?
• More brainstorming on small town job development
• Professional and personal boundaries issues
• Other ways to improve the process?
4. First issue – group decision point – 30 min
5. Second issue – 30 min
6. Third – remainder
Issue 1: Getting families and care providers to support vision of a job when initially they don’t support it
• Could really help a lot of teachers and others
• Sometimes like pulling teeth
• Some haven’t begun even thinking about the fact that they have abilities
• Aimee will send “disability is natural” information
• It saves you a lot of energy at the end of the road
• If they can have their loved ones watching tv, is it easier on the families?
• Often it is because they are doing the best they know how to get through the day – so that is where we need to start with, these are family systems that have been worked out over decades sometimes
• Need to be slow and steady. Start with small steps of improvement. Going too fast can scare people
• How to introduce the idea/how to begin? Work on adaptive skills. Start with small steps. Tiny things like blowing own nose, going out without parents, as well as being safe and happy so they want to do it again.
• If we are not an encouragement or a reward to the people we serve, they won’t want to go along
• Explain what we will do first. Honor the relationships
• Incorporate into person centered plans those small steps
• One thing that has worked: when we were still in pathways phase, doing assessments, took photographs and showed them at follow on meetings – families were often surprised. Incorporate pictures into the process. Or use communication boards – can astound families with what they are able to do. Seeing pictures make it a reality.
• How to motivate people to change? Ask them. “How would we best deal with this in the future? Do you have any ideas how we might make this happen? How can we help YOU? Maybe say ‘I could see this as an issue in the future?’” Have a fairly honest discussion
• Maybe one of the other motivating factors is personal growth, more opportunities to go out into communities, if they can actually see the individual be more independent and proud of it – is a major reinforcement
• Celebrating even the smallest accomplishments because it works!
• A ton of it is real fear – because of past horrible things that have happened
• Positive reinforcement comes into it – verbal cues, then visual demonstration
• How to build trust in us? Make it safe for them? e.g. starting to meet in the home, validating the family’s concerns and fears. After a while they let us go for 15 minutes. They know that we really care, and that we are there to do something beneficial, doing 1×1 time with person and family in home
• We’re considered the professionals, they assume we know how to do it, they just don’t know how to move forward. Getting them comfortable with us, they know we do know what we are doing. Then they will trust us. And it will save a lot of energy. Not just with families, but with residential providers and other caregivers
• Sometimes helps to say, I am sitting here observing, I have no magic, but you are the expert on the person. “You have all the information” – most haven’t talked to them that way – doctors, nurses, do come in as the experts. Working with them, reinforcing. Use our skills. Takes at least five atta-boys before movement happens – about everything. Positive reinforcement for ALL. Realize they are doing the best they know how at the moment.
Employer Interview Video and discussed Clallam employers who hire more than one person.
Issue #2 -Personal Professional Boundaries
• Seeing someone you are supporting in the community when you are not supporting them, what should our interaction be – a million ways to go with that?
• Treat them just like anyone else. We are still a role model for anybody else in sight.
• Say hi, talk to them like anyone else. If they want to talk to you about something work-related, say, “I am not working right now, call me Monday.”
• Do you approach them? Depends on relationship, how do you usually interact? If they are uncomfortable with you, don’t, just like anyone else. If they approach you, fine, but don’t approach them. They initiate.
• Another example: if they initiate and you don’t want to interact? What is my responsibility, what do I say to them?
• Be courteous, but don’t have to delve into life history and conversation. Politely disengage. Set a boundary without being rude. Explain it’s personal space, personal time, short response, exit, don’t carry on long conversations.
• What if people seek you out when they are in crisis? Give them the number for on-call crisis line, call 9-11, if truly in crisis, help as you would anyone else, make call for them, etc., but follow-up with them to set that boundary in place – you are not the person they will come to all the time when there is a problem.
• What to do when there is a ‘buddy relationship’ with someone, and how to switch to a professional role? Very difficult for people with intellectual disabilities to switch and wrap their minds around the difference. Have conversations with everyone, from the beginning, that personal and professional lives are different. Up to the job coach to give them cues when talking about personal and professional issues. Can use role playing, e.g. starting a conversation, is that a personal or work issue we are talking about?
Issue 3: With fact sheets, what is legality around citing sources?
• If use facts, find and cite the sources – backs up what you are saying. If in writing, definitely cite the sources. If don’t know it, Google key words and find it.
Future issues to discuss: Families say people can’t work because it will cut off their SSI/SSDI – address next time, give info/facts, and offer PJA as resource.
Jim Corey said
WELCOME TO THE CLALLAM COUNTY ONLINE ISSUE FORUM BLOG! The purpose of this is to share notes from our online forums, and allow us a place to put other thoughts that arise, as well as allow other people to join into the conversation. Here are the notes from the first meeting to kick it off:
NOTES from the first Clallam County Job Coach/Job Developer Online Forum:
October 27, 2009, 3-5 p.m.
Attending: Robin Schostak, Shannon Ross, Elsie Hampton, Dawn Barrett, Bill Barrett, Donna Morfeld, Aimee Barton, Tanya Berkebile, Monica McDaniel, and Jim Corey
Issue 1: My biggest challenge is the depressed economy and high unemployment rate. There are not many employment opportunities. It is getting to the point that when I go into business people run. It is a struggle. I need any ideas.
• On the other hand I do get to have more conversations with businesses
• Businesses say it is not cost effective and they can’t break job descriptions down
• I am approaching the same businesses several times, they know who I am
• Maybe approach them with cost-effective/money saving ideas after getting to know them
• Ask them what is being cut, and what work still needs to be done despite their cuts
• Potential wording: “HI I’M A CAREER COUNSELOR AND I JUST WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR BUSINESS NEEDS ARE, ESPECIALLY IN THIS BAD ECONOMY. MY JOB IS TO PARTNER WITH YOUR BUSINESS TO UNDERSTAND YOUR NEEDS.”
• Get to know businesses on initial visits, and then introduce disability
• Use term career counselor, not job developer, job coach, supported employment, etc.?
• Build relationships to understand what their needs and cuts are first
• Insurance issue: employers are bringing that up too. Liability insurance for assessments – covered as regular public would be in public areas? Sometimes the people we serve are covered by employment agency insurance plans and sometimes not. RESEARCH. Labor and Industries for employees – based on safety record not on employees with or without disabilities. Dupont study (from Monica) – average individual with disability 90% safer, will send study to group. Might be good to provide businesses with statistics like these. Possibility for people we serve to sign a liability waiver? Partner with DVR on it? Must find a way for employers to gain something from an assessment first, then work with the objections. Start an assessment with workplace safety training. Tell employers about how people with disabilities have become safety officers and committee members. For example: http://peopleworking.wikispaces.com/Doug+at+Safeway. Offer 1×1 commitment. LIABILITY INSURANCE ISSUES MUST BE RESEARCHED MORE…
• Monica offered to provide a document which shows how to word questions with employers to get specific types of information – will send.
Issue 2: 23 yo male, blind, needs to make some progress on his pathway but the family is VERY resistant. We can see he has potential and need ideas to expand his options. He’s been in our Pathways service for 6 months and the family doesn’t reinforce what we’re supporting him to do (like using a cane to navigate). At home he tore up his wallet, and they use that as proof he can’t work. But, he will show us that he IS learning. The strength in hands is very bad. In the car, he didn’t acknowledge the seatbelt at first, but now understands the concept, reaches up/moves his hands and says “seatbelt” but isn’t able to pull it forward. He experiences autism and can be violent if upset. We know what triggers outbursts. When he does tasks, and he is done, he is DONE. He loves music. Another man who is similar – we are re-introducing previously learned concepts that have been unlearned. The care provider stopped the learning.
• Ask him if he wants to learn how to cane and open a door to allow him to express what his wishes are
• Help him think of that cane as an extension of his arm. If he uses it, he can make things happen, feel around, etc.
• Family won’t buy into it – reinforce that this is a tool for him to use for getting around, safety. How to get the family to see value in it? Get them to see he needs to be allowed to grow. You are stifling him if you don’t allow him to grow.
• Support him in public, get him to know, “You are safe with me”
• Show family examples of other people with significant disabilities doing cool things. Talk to families who have experienced the same fears and also success – get them to speak with his family. Connect with them through people who have been through what they are going through. “This is the way it’s been done successfully.” It is hard for them to see new things. There are unspoken fears – try to find out and address what those are.
• There is a DSB assessment in their home soon. DSB assessments show how a person can become independent in their own homes. Reinforce this. This might unlock the possibility of independence outside of the home. Also, getting an appropriate cane for him (size, style, etc.) is important for it to work. DSB is expert in this, not us.
• With family, start with goals they can agree on, e.g. what do you want for the person, more relationships, fuller life, etc. After those are established, new things can be introduced in support of the goals.
• When he is interested in something, he stops to think, e.g. he touched the water and marine life on an outing, loves to feel the wind out the sunroof of the car. Touching things made him a whole different person. He likes touching things – explore that as part of his pathway. Measure what holds his attention and for how long. Maybe try touching other things, exploring different things to touch. Combine with use of cane?
• Use the cane to push things, maybe the musical ball, to teach that use of cane as a tool to cause things to happen. Associate it with pleasurable things to him.
• Go to the Visitors Center – it is a tactile environment. Once he begins to enjoy it, introduce activities he likes, then introduce the cane.
• DSB provide him a cane trainer? Teach tap and slide… proper caning skills… Ask DSB about potential resources. Do research on internet re: caning techniques.
Issue 3: When setting up and coaching during assessments, how do you approach the idea of accommodations? For example, there is a man with hearing loss who wants to be mechanic, and we did some assessments for DVR who wanted to see what he could do on his own. How do you approach businesses about accommodating assessments? What types of accommodations should I look at? His mother didn’t really want it to work out. He is also very interested in the art world, painting, and details. Where to start and who pays for it if it costs money?
• When you get a business to agree to be an assessment site, do a pre-assessment interview. Ask them to do a mini-job interview with you, talk about days and times and duties they would like done. If part of the tasks might be difficult for the person, bring it up right then and there and ask, “Are you open to us allowing to change the height of the table, etc.?” A lot of times, if they are open, they start coming up with other ideas.
• Expensive needs? Who takes care of the cost? If using DVR, for a job, not an assessment, they might get some funding to remove barriers, bring in thoughts, buy assistive devices, etc.. Do research, Google for ideas, talk with others, ask DVR, once a device is identified, DVR can do an IT evaluation which then might provide funding.
• Can the person do the essential functions of the job? What small things can we do to make it possible for the person to be able to do it?
• In general, most accommodations are not expensive, and are simple fixes. People often have “garage engineers” they know who are great at designing and making jigs. Our job is to come up with ideas, get creative, and figure it out… how can they do the task?
• Find out how and what works best for that person. What is he able to do/what senses does he use the most, how does he learn the best? What in that environment does he really want to do? Be creative about finding what he wants to and can do. Then think of what he needs to do it and be successful.
• Sounds like he is mechanically inclined. Might like to take things apart, put things together, like small engine repair, repair shops, appliance repair, bicycles, hardware store, furniture stores, appliances, Home Depot displays, swings, ACE, co-ops.
• Look at broad picture, where he gets enticed, to find out where he might be able to explore his mechanical inclination.
Next Steps:
1. Jim send notes, certificates, evaluations, Dupont Study and Questions for Employers
2. GENERAL REQUEST: CREATE A “BLACKBOARD” TO POST IDEAS, SHARE AND ADD NEW IDEAS, AND KEEP THE CONVERSATION GOING – Jim and Aimee will work on.
3. Schedule November forum.
Jim Corey said
Clallam EC Forum #2, 11-24-09
Agenda
1. Introductions – 2 min
2. Ground rules – say names; raise hands; cells on vibrate; notes are being
taken, so you don’t have to (sorry so choppy, no way to avoid) – 2 min
3. Go over feedback – 5 min
• Ways to enlist the community to support the ideas of supported employment without
seeming
• pushy or taking jobs away from people without the disabilities.
• Trainings helpful to community access providers?
• More brainstorming on small town job development
• Professional and personal boundaries issues
• Other ways to improve the process?
4. First issue – group decision point – 30 min
5. Second issue – 30 min
6. Third – remainder
Issue 1: Getting families and care providers to support vision of a job when initially they don’t support it
• Could really help a lot of teachers and others
• Sometimes like pulling teeth
• Some haven’t begun even thinking about the fact that they have abilities
• Aimee will send “disability is natural” information
• It saves you a lot of energy at the end of the road
• If they can have their loved ones watching tv, is it easier on the families?
• Often it is because they are doing the best they know how to get through the day – so that is where we need to start with, these are family systems that have been worked out over decades sometimes
• Need to be slow and steady. Start with small steps of improvement. Going too fast can scare people
• How to introduce the idea/how to begin? Work on adaptive skills. Start with small steps. Tiny things like blowing own nose, going out without parents, as well as being safe and happy so they want to do it again.
• If we are not an encouragement or a reward to the people we serve, they won’t want to go along
• Explain what we will do first. Honor the relationships
• Incorporate into person centered plans those small steps
• One thing that has worked: when we were still in pathways phase, doing assessments, took photographs and showed them at follow on meetings – families were often surprised. Incorporate pictures into the process. Or use communication boards – can astound families with what they are able to do. Seeing pictures make it a reality.
• How to motivate people to change? Ask them. “How would we best deal with this in the future? Do you have any ideas how we might make this happen? How can we help YOU? Maybe say ‘I could see this as an issue in the future?’” Have a fairly honest discussion
• Maybe one of the other motivating factors is personal growth, more opportunities to go out into communities, if they can actually see the individual be more independent and proud of it – is a major reinforcement
• Celebrating even the smallest accomplishments because it works!
• A ton of it is real fear – because of past horrible things that have happened
• Positive reinforcement comes into it – verbal cues, then visual demonstration
• How to build trust in us? Make it safe for them? e.g. starting to meet in the home, validating the family’s concerns and fears. After a while they let us go for 15 minutes. They know that we really care, and that we are there to do something beneficial, doing 1×1 time with person and family in home
• We’re considered the professionals, they assume we know how to do it, they just don’t know how to move forward. Getting them comfortable with us, they know we do know what we are doing. Then they will trust us. And it will save a lot of energy. Not just with families, but with residential providers and other caregivers
• Sometimes helps to say, I am sitting here observing, I have no magic, but you are the expert on the person. “You have all the information” – most haven’t talked to them that way – doctors, nurses, do come in as the experts. Working with them, reinforcing. Use our skills. Takes at least five atta-boys before movement happens – about everything. Positive reinforcement for ALL. Realize they are doing the best they know how at the moment.
Employer Interview Video and discussed Clallam employers who hire more than one person.
Issue #2 -Personal Professional Boundaries
• Seeing someone you are supporting in the community when you are not supporting them, what should our interaction be – a million ways to go with that?
• Treat them just like anyone else. We are still a role model for anybody else in sight.
• Say hi, talk to them like anyone else. If they want to talk to you about something work-related, say, “I am not working right now, call me Monday.”
• Do you approach them? Depends on relationship, how do you usually interact? If they are uncomfortable with you, don’t, just like anyone else. If they approach you, fine, but don’t approach them. They initiate.
• Another example: if they initiate and you don’t want to interact? What is my responsibility, what do I say to them?
• Be courteous, but don’t have to delve into life history and conversation. Politely disengage. Set a boundary without being rude. Explain it’s personal space, personal time, short response, exit, don’t carry on long conversations.
• What if people seek you out when they are in crisis? Give them the number for on-call crisis line, call 9-11, if truly in crisis, help as you would anyone else, make call for them, etc., but follow-up with them to set that boundary in place – you are not the person they will come to all the time when there is a problem.
• What to do when there is a ‘buddy relationship’ with someone, and how to switch to a professional role? Very difficult for people with intellectual disabilities to switch and wrap their minds around the difference. Have conversations with everyone, from the beginning, that personal and professional lives are different. Up to the job coach to give them cues when talking about personal and professional issues. Can use role playing, e.g. starting a conversation, is that a personal or work issue we are talking about?
Issue 3: With fact sheets, what is legality around citing sources?
• If use facts, find and cite the sources – backs up what you are saying. If in writing, definitely cite the sources. If don’t know it, Google key words and find it.
Future issues to discuss: Families say people can’t work because it will cut off their SSI/SSDI – address next time, give info/facts, and offer PJA as resource.